Protective Coloration, "SECURITY" jackets, and Fake ...
 

If a person has the power to kill without guilt then they have the
responsibility to keep themselves out of positions where they might have to
kill. That goes double if they do it in my name.
It's true for civilians who carry guns for their own protection. It's true
for cops.
Bet you the people in this group who are the best armed are the best at
non-violent conflict resolution.
 - gruhn

On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 12:34:25 +1030, Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au>
wrote:
[...].
>> One of these days, you will pray that you have more like me there -
>> especially when the government quitely does away with the last of your
>> rights - and its do as they say or starve/jail/die.
>No matter what you may think the Government is not out to get us.
>> Good luck being chattels of the state - and getting treatment no
>> better than cattle.
>Mmmm not having to work, living off the farmer, eating as much food as you want, no
>responsibilities. Sounds like a damn fine life to me.

Up until the part where you are led up that ramp at the
slaughterhouse.  Nice ending to a "damn fine life."
Larry Palletti
East Point/Atlanta, Georgia
http://www.palletti.com    l...@palletti.com    www.booksonscreen.com
--
Opinionated, but lovable

gruhn   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism "gruhn" <g...@hwb.com> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism3fe16723e0600762" Individual Message Show original >Now if the guy didn't shoot at them and they didn't identify themselves and
>they went their with the intent to kill an innocent man then yes they

should be tried with
How about if they went there with the intent to kill a guilty man?

gruhn   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism "gruhn" <g...@hwb.com> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: The Death Penalty Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism28b5ddefaf788c97" Individual Message Show original >Uh, excuse me Tim, but if a judge who approved the confiscation
>of guns got a fair trial, what crime do you believe he should be
>charged with?

At a guess, treason.

Gunner   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism gun...@lightspeed.net (Gunner) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism865fbcd6c849f350" Individual Message Show original Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
>I said bend laws not go around killing everyone that they think might be a criminal. Are
>there any former LEO's here that will say that they bent a few laws? The guy I lived next
>door to for 18 yrs was in the water police. not exactly a straight cop but he didn't break
>any laws to benefit himself he did bend them to arrest people he knew were criminals.

I was a police officer for several years. At no time did I ever "bend"
a few rules. The reason I am not a police officer, was the fact that
Bending the rules was not only expected, but incouraged. The "bending"
part included beating suspects until they confessed (even if they were
not guilty), planting drugs and contraband on people, lying under oath
etc. Now if you want to call that bending...go ahead.  I quit because
I became a policeofficer to protect and server, not punch and sap.
Every cop whom bends the rules, should expect to be tried and
convicted if caught. Few ever do, even if caught.
Right now there is a major ongoing investigation of police
misconduct/malfeasence in the Rampart division of Los Angeles. A
Sargent got his tit in the wringer, and decided to spill his guts.
So far the score is 14 innocents released from prison, at least 3 dead
civilians whom were innocent but killed by police, a police burglary
ring, a police drug dealer ring.... and on and on and on....
Bending the rules got at least 3 people dead, and at least 14 folks
lives ruined. And the investigation is just starting.
Do a Deja search using "Rampart, Los Angeles, police corruption"
That whole cluster fuck is what happens when you "bend the rules"
Bending the rules is not an option for police officers. If they can't
play by the rules, quit.  Felix Dhezerhensky, the butcher of Stalins
Russia, is quoted as saying:
Better 10,000 innocents perish than one guilty man escape"
Bending the rules is NOT an option.
Gunner
------------------------------ ---------------------------
 "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
 invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
 a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
 the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
 solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
 a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
 gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein

Gunner   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism gun...@lightspeed.net (Gunner) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism730c253cc4d1a33d" Individual Message Show original Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:

Magic, I would like you to take a look at some information that I am
intimately familiar with.
http://www.hamnet.net/~n4zhg/h owell.html
http://www.hamnet.net/~n4zhg/h owell.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo rum/a361d199e1ed2.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo rum/a3637c4962210.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo rum/a3637c4962210.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo rum/a36373733527d.htm
Darryl Howell was a close and trusted friend of mine. He did march to
his own drummer, but he was 100% above reproach.
The officer who shot him, had an on going feud with Darryl.
A side note by the way. The raid was outside of the Sargents
jurisdiction, and the Sargent was off duty.
As you will notice, the shooting was ruled justified by two of his
superiors. No outsiders. Just the two at the top.
This is the 3rd or 4th shooting this particular officer was involved
in by the way. All are alleged to be as questionable, and it has been
alleged that he was involved with the drug trade for a number of
years.
I helped bury Darryl. I spoke at his services. I have never accused
the Sargent of murder.
 However, the general mood of the community, to this day, is such that
the Sargent will never work street duty again, as his life expectancy
would be short.
And I would not shed a tear if it was cut short. And I know him.
I also included a news item about an unarmed woman who had her
shoulder blown off by a JBT during a crash and burn raid.
There are countless such examples. This is the reason that a goodly
number of us fear the police as much as the crooks. I know I fear the
police FAR more than I do the bad guys. And I am a 100% lawabiding
citizen.
Things in Oz may be different, and for that, thank whatever diety
turns your crank. But I can bet you a dollar, that things in Oz will
get there, someday soon.
So read the links, and think real long and hard about "bending the
rules" and its effects, before you spout off again.
- -Gunner
------------------------------ ---------------------------
 "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
 invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
 a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
 the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
 solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
 a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
 gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein


Gunner   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism gun...@lightspeed.net (Gunner) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism3e6f2228ff8dc38f" Individual Message Show original edev...@home.com (Miradus) wrote:
>Get real, Gunner. You're being as knee-jerk reactionary as the rest of
>these clowns. The police DID have the right to defend themselves, BUT
>they should have never been there in the first place.
>The victim was perfectly within his rights to defend himself.
>The cops were perfectly within their rights to defend themselves.
>Put the blame where it belongs... on the policy makers who CREATED the
>unwinnable situation.
>Miradus

Your right about me being Knee Jerk Reactionary. Its starting to come
with the territory. Everyday I hear about some poor bastard getting
his ass waxed in some cluster fuck. And I am getting mad as hell about
it. I lost a good friend through a "suicide" in the presence of police
officers... see earlier posts, or do a Deja search on Howell, Taft,
gun shop
When I stumbled into this thread, I thought it was about a nt
killing that the police committed in L.A. Did a no-knock, bad info,
bullshit charge and wound up shooting a elderly Mexican Grandfather in
the back, multiple times as he lay face down in bed. Just another
OOPSS.
This is counter to everything I was taught in the police academy.
Everything. Protect and Serve had become Punch and Swerve.
Yes, Im knee jerking. No, I do not dily blame the officers whom
fired. Rat screw on their part, and they should pay the price for poor
judgement, over aggressiveness, and whatnot. The paid snitch, the
judge and the original detective should also pay the price. The chain
of guild runs long. The Nuremburg defense is worth squat, then and in
these police cases.  Unfortunately they are getting away with it
everyday, and each time they do, they just get bolder and more
aggressive. It aint gonna stop until some MAJOR changes occur. I
really hope SCOTUS makes those changes and soon before more die.
- -Gunner
------------------------------ ---------------------------
 "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
 invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
 a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
 the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
 solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
 a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
 gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein


Mysterion   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism "Mysterion" <nos...@netrax.net> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism627051d136e8da8d" Individual Message Show original Lou Boyd wrote in message <3849CA1C.CCA94...@apt2.sao.ar izona.edu>...
>I assume from that statement you don't know what a Browning 1919 is.
>It's a belt fed water cooled .30-06 heavy machine gun and will fire AP
>continuously as long as it has ammo.

Are you sure that isn't the Browning 1917?
I thought the 1919 was the air-cooled model.
Or was it the 1919A1?

Mysterion   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism "Mysterion" <nos...@netrax.net> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism6722f8c00c015b8b" Individual Message Show original Ben & D...@accunet.com (Ben Dir & Don Datt) wrote in message
<38499a31.362657...@nntp.ix.ne tcom.com>...
>Let's say this man had  an alarm system that alerted him to an entry
>at 2:00AM, had time to pull say an AK47 from the closet, slap a 40
>round mag into it,

Holy crap!
You just described my house, except its a 55 round mag loaded with 40
rounds, and its already in.

Terry Shaw   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism T...@podunk.net (Terry Shaw) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalismaf115e58c8a6de77" Individual Message Show original On Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:48:11 -0700, "gruhn" <g...@hwb.com> wrote:
>>No, they should be tried for first degree murder, a capital crime.
>Do you think it would be more effective for the widow to slap a honking
>large suit on the city?
>Theory being that a few cops are replacable, but that kind of money actually
>hurts.

I guess in theory this might be effective but in practice it has no
positive effect.  
The government agency that gets sued sucessfully will simply seek to
replace the lost money (revenue).  They replace this revenue by
increasing taxes (it's for the children) or by wailing and whining to
a higher government agency.
The *only* way to straighten out these criminals is to make them
personally pay the price for their behavior.  Unfortunately, the
government is now far-too-deep in criminal activity to allow this.  If
we actually started to make these criminals pay -- they would start
talking about what they know behind-the-scenes.  This would cause the
regime to self-destruct in short order........

Terry Shaw   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism T...@podunk.net (Terry Shaw) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism95aaf5306604a912" Individual Message Show original On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:53:20 -0500, Bill Seward <1...@nr.infi.net>
wrote:
>Just as an FYI, another SWAT team (local to me) raided the alledged
>home of a "bigtime drug dealer" this week.  Snipers on the roofs,
>blocked off access to several blocks, blah blah.  And no, they didn't
>get their man--he was never there.

We need to start publically identifiying these hooded troops and the
uniforms the give the orders.  Since these people have no public
"identity" during these raids, they can currently get away with
anything.  
Once these people are publically identified -- they will loose the
ability to operate unpunished.
--
I can't help but wonder just how long it will take these criminals to
raise the swastika.

Ben Dir & Don Datt   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Ben & D...@accunet.com (Ben Dir & Don Datt) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism3d9c5fbe270e2a99" Individual Message Show original Now that most religious organizations are on the "Terrorist watch
list", who'se watching those keeping the lists and how do I explain to
the kids what the difference is between a "Terrorist" and what the
SWAT/SERT federalized poilce teams are doing all across the country?
- -On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:58:26 GMT, T...@podunk.net (Terry Shaw) wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:53:20 -0500, Bill Seward <1...@nr.infi.net>
>wrote:
>>Just as an FYI, another SWAT team (local to me) raided the alledged
>>home of a "bigtime drug dealer" this week.  Snipers on the roofs,
>>blocked off access to several blocks, blah blah.  And no, they didn't
>>get their man--he was never there.
>We need to start publically identifiying these hooded troops and the
>uniforms the give the orders.  Since these people have no public
>"identity" during these raids, they can currently get away with
>anything.  
>Once these people are publically identified -- they will loose the
>ability to operate unpunished.
>--
>I can't help but wonder just how long it will take these criminals to
>raise the swastika.


D. P. Roberts   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism i...@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism9cf9ebe2e68bbf3c" Individual Message Show original >No he fired the first shot, he was on the offense. Do you think that the police
>should have stood there and got shot?

What if it had been crooks instead of cops?  These uniformed thugs
break in at 4:00 am and what are you supposed to do, just sit there?
I hope you remember what you said when they come after YOU!

Ben Dir & Don Datt   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Ben & D...@accunet.com (Ben Dir & Don Datt) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalismd6f68c57422476f0" Individual Message Show original When I was a kid going to UCLA years ago, an LA cop pulled me over for
no reason, pulled out a large gun and pulled me out of my car
screaming at me at the top of his lungs. He was completely incoherent.
He was obviously rugged out, from looking at his eyes. I was just
coming back from studying at the lab, it was 1AM. This guy was
completely beserk.
When I asked him what I was supposed to have done, he kicked me in the
crotch and sceramed "just shut the fuck up!".
Anyway, bottom line is apparently this guy had no idea who I was or
what I was supposed to have done. He was drugged up and crazy. I was
lying there on the street, face down with his boot on my head waiting
for some local to come by and rescue me. Another cruiser came up, and
there was this loud exchange of words and the crazy cop just drove
off.
The second cop walked over, helped me up and apologized. I was pretty
shaken up. I asked him what in the hell was going on, and all he said
was this the cop that stopped me "suspected I was an armed robbery
suspect". I didn't believe it for a second.
This happened during that period of time in the 80's when the CIA was
brining in huge quantities of cocaine into the LA area as part of it's
funding of ther Contra's. Congresswoman Barbara Jordan was later
investigating that and was threatened and told to back off.
It was one of my earlier experiences with the police, and ever since I
consider them to be on par with any criminal, except criminals don't
pretend to "serve and protect".
On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 09:52:02 GMT, gun...@lightspeed.net (Gunner)
wrote:
- ->Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
>>I said bend laws not go around killing everyone that they think might be a criminal. Are
>>there any former LEO's here that will say that they bent a few laws? The guy I lived next
>>door to for 18 yrs was in the water police. not exactly a straight cop but he didn't break
>>any laws to benefit himself he did bend them to arrest people he knew were criminals.
>I was a police officer for several years. At no time did I ever "bend"
>a few rules. The reason I am not a police officer, was the fact that
>Bending the rules was not only expected, but incouraged. The "bending"
>part included beating suspects until they confessed (even if they were
>not guilty), planting drugs and contraband on people, lying under oath
>etc. Now if you want to call that bending...go ahead.  I quit because
>I became a policeofficer to protect and server, not punch and sap.
>Every cop whom bends the rules, should expect to be tried and
>convicted if caught. Few ever do, even if caught.
>Right now there is a major ongoing investigation of police
>misconduct/malfeasence in the Rampart division of Los Angeles. A
>Sargent got his tit in the wringer, and decided to spill his guts.
>So far the score is 14 innocents released from prison, at least 3 dead
>civilians whom were innocent but killed by police, a police burglary
>ring, a police drug dealer ring.... and on and on and on....
>Bending the rules got at least 3 people dead, and at least 14 folks
>lives ruined. And the investigation is just starting.
>Do a Deja search using "Rampart, Los Angeles, police corruption"
>That whole cluster fuck is what happens when you "bend the rules"
>Bending the rules is not an option for police officers. If they can't
>play by the rules, quit.  Felix Dhezerhensky, the butcher of Stalins
>Russia, is quoted as saying:
>Better 10,000 innocents perish than one guilty man escape"
>Bending the rules is NOT an option.
>Gunner
>----------------------------- ----------------------------
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
> invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
> a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
> the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
> solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
> a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein


Charles Scripter   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Charles Scripter <cescrip...@portup.com> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalismf34f8f3729972111" Individual Message Show original Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
> But what was on the warrant?

   Do you mean to imply that the warrant stated that the police could
shoot the occupants of the house?  (as you are apparently defending
their criminal actions)
> I don't believe they went in there to kill him. and I don't believe
> any sane person believes that either.

   The general rule is that if you create a situation which is likely
to result in bodily harm, and then kill someone in the process, it is
treated as MURDER.  (note that some drunk drivers have been convicted
of murder, after killing passengers in another vehicle)
--
Charles Scripter  *  cescrip...@portup.com   www.portup.com/~cescripter
   When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba.

Charles Scripter   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Charles Scripter <cescrip...@portup.com> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism8d18a1c78431e0d0" Individual Message Show original Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
> The evidence I had was on behalf of the original post, I said I
> would consider it again if more came out. Now if the guy didn't shoot
> at them and they didn't identify themselves and they went their with
> the intent to kill an innocent man then yes they should be tried with
> murder.

   No, if they went there with the intent to kill, then it was
PREMEDITATED murder.  But killing the homeowner "in the heat of the
moment", while not premeditated ("1st degree"), was still murder...
   Was the man innocent?  Yes.  He had not been convicted of a crime
in a Jury trial, and was therefore innocent.  (nor was caught in the
midst of an unlawful act)
--
Charles Scripter  *  cescrip...@portup.com   www.portup.com/~cescripter
   When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba

.

Charles Scripter   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Charles Scripter <cescrip...@portup.com> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism6fa5a5c342ce9b79" Individual Message Show original Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
> No the homeowner was suspected by the police doing the raid because
> that is what it said on the warrant.

   Circular logic.
> But attack isn't defence, the police hadn't attacked him yet.

   Home invasion in and of itself is an ATTACK.  There is not
requirement that the homeowner wait until the invader SHOOTS FIRST.
> I still say that the police were acting in self defence after being
> shot at.

   Self defense is an invalid claim when YOU actually created the
situation that you claim to be defending against.  I cannot slap you
in the face, bet the hell out of you when you fight back, and then
claim it was "self defense".
> You can't defend against something that hasn't happened yet.

   The police had already initiated the home invasion.  The action
which was being defended against had already happened.
> I don't believe that. Shouldn't their main concern be for the
> public. the citizenry have higher chance of being injured if they
> chased him in cars than if they arrested him while he was sleeping in
> his own bed.

   The citizenry have a lower change of being injured if these thugs
learn to walk up to the door and knock.
   But if this man was sleeping (as you assert they were arresting a
sleeping man), why did they shoot a "sleeping man"?
   If you bust into my home, in the middle of the night, in a violent
and threatening manner, I have no choice but to assume you are there
to commit violence.  At that point it is self defense.
> Like hell it is, The police were not out to kill an innocent man.

   But they created a condition where they did just that.  They
murdered that man.
> They went to arrest a drug dealer.

   Wow, based on that, he sounds _really_ violent...
   Kinda reminds me of the MI DNR taking snipers to serve a warrant on
a fellow who dug some duck ponds...  Only to find out that the Sheriff
wouldn't serve the warrant, questioning it's validity.
   We all know how violent old men who dig duck ponds are...
--
Charles Scripter  *  cescrip...@portup.com   www.portup.com/~cescripter
   When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba

.

Charles Scripter   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Charles Scripter <cescrip...@portup.com> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism140062eff94800f1" Individual Message Show original Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
> police bending the law is the price you pay to be able to sleep well
> at night.

   Funny, knowing that the police apparently enjoy breaking the law is
the reason that I *don't* sleep well at night.
   How long before they move from murdering suspected drug dealers, to
murdering subversive intellectuals?  "We had to kill him...  He
resisted after we broke into his house at 3AM, to arrest him for
saying *bad things* about Bill Clinton".
(I wonder what the JPFO would say about such "dynamic entry" raids?
Perhaps something like: "All those in favor of midnight JBT invasions,
raise your right hand")
   Sieg Heil, Herr Magic!..
--
Charles Scripter  *  cescrip...@portup.com   www.portup.com/~cescripter
   When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba

.

W A Collier   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism wacoll...@sppoboxam.com (W A Collier ) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism8f6abb58a454e566" Individual Message Show original <3849C707.DE3D9...@camtech.net .au>, harve...@camtech.net.au
says...
> Rick Bowen wrote:
> > >> I live in Denver - there is evidence coming that the police didnt
> > >> identify themselves, so he was within his rights to shoot.
> > >What do you mean there is evidence coming? are you psychic.
> > It's called news, newspapers, reporters. You ought to try it sometime.
> So there IS evidence, why didn't he say that instead of their is evidence coming.

I was waiting on something more substantial than rumors from a friend who
is in the local sheriffs office that had heard about this from a friend
on the Denver PD.  The actually affidavits from the *1* honest cop in the
SWAT team were what the local news radio station got hold of - and
substantiated what I had heard second hand.  So I posted after that
point.  I assumed (corly) that our local press (in this case the
"right wing" radio station guys - and one of their "left wing" reporters
- go figure) were the ones to dig this document out of the Denver PD

W A Collier   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism wacoll...@sppoboxam.com (W A Collier ) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalismbf2a40fdf3d800aa" Individual Message Show original <et1JOF9BnYjrbJEV3wMaL0tTS...@ 4ax.com>, 1...@nr.infi.net
says...
> Whilst tap dancing on a land mine, g...@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Cynara)
> wrote:
> >2 a.m. raid on house of suspected drug user.
> >JBTs shoot and kill man in his bedroom.
> >Ooopsie!  Wrong house ...
> >Where's the outcry?
> You expect an outcry?  From the average citizen, who only knows what
> is on the news (which he/she mostly ignores anyway)?
> Our fine friends in the media will be most helpful to law enfoent
> in playing this one down.  Oh, it'll be in some papers--2 inches
> buried on page 19A, at the bottom inside corner.

Mayor Webb has pressured both Denver papers to bury this story - and
until Talk Radio go hold of it, it was back on page 5 and 6, or else
buried in the "local" section.
> Our country is sinking into the stinking morass of its own making--we
> are getting to reap what we have sowed for over a hundred years.

No - I blame the last 25 years - the so-called "baby boomers" and their
belief in the government doing everything for them.  Quite the opposite
of what they were saying as kids.
> What is happening to the US is similar in many respects to the
> downfalls of many great civilizations that have pded us.  I think
> an interesting question to ponder is "Who will play the Vandals to our
> Rome?"

The baby boomer generation has already done that - undermining the use of
Reason and logic in our society, replacing it with mysticism and other
"new age" pap.  They then raised up our own vandals - with no moral
compass (not neccesarily religious), no knowledge, and an utter inability
to reason and think for themselves but with a bent toward violence.  The
perfect generation of little thugs in waiting if they wish to seize them
like Mao did in the Cultural Revolution, or Hitler and his Brownshirted
SA.
Read some of James Randi's writings for the Skeptics society, or Carl
Sagan's mea culpa about the impending intellectual and then cultural
darkness.  All it awaits is a charismatic leader with no morals who tells
the people what they want to hear instead of standing up and doing what
is right (hmm, maybe we already have him, sounds a lot like Bill Clinton)
and a populace either too stupid or indifferent to fight back when it is
disarmed (physically and mentally) for management by its would-be
masters.
The cure?  Individualism, responsibility, teaching how to think instead
of what to think.  And the dissolution of the current media and its choke
holds on our society, as well as maintaining the ultimate veto for the
citizenry:  guns in the hands of the common citizen and the will to use
them.

Miradus   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism edev...@home.com (Miradus) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism6c5fe197f91e4463" Individual Message Show original On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 12:34:25 +1030, Mr_Magic <harve...@camtech.net.au>
wrote:
>> One of these days, you will pray that you have more like me there -
>> especially when the government quitely does away with the last of your
>> rights - and its do as they say or starve/jail/die.
>No matter what you may think the Government is not out to get us.

I don't believe they are out to get us... I think they are just out
for their own interests, which involves getting more funding (more of
MY money) and more power (my rights). The end result is the same.
>> Good luck being chattels of the state - and getting treatment no
>> better than cattle.
>Mmmm not having to work, living off the farmer, eating as much food as you want, no
>responsibilities. Sounds like a damn fine life to me.

Right up to slaughtering time.
Miradus

Miradus   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism edev...@home.com (Miradus) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism02fa473e457dad94" Individual Message Show original On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:10:04 GMT, jsell...@airmail.dot.net (Jim)
wrote:
>But then again, maybe it is. If they were shot a lot more often when breaking
>down doors, I think that would soon make them stop and think.........
>"Hmmmm.....You know maybe this is not such a good idea."   "I know we
>got this info from the crazy druggie, but you know what?  Maybe his info
>isn't quite as good as we might think.  MAYBE we should check out the guy
>and the address he gave us before we get a NO KNOCK warrant.  I am
>getting tired of going to cop funerals, and I would hate to have all you guys
>have to come to mine."

Cops don't think like that. They say "This guy MIGHT wound one of us,
so we'll need about 20 more guys. Also, let's see if we can get some
laws passed to make sure he doesn't own a gun..."
Miradus

Miradus   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism edev...@home.com (Miradus) - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism1b8f5d523913fbd6" Individual Message Show original On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 02:12:44 +0000, Lou Boyd
<b...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
>I assume from that statement you don't know what a Browning 1919 is.
>It's a belt fed water cooled .30-06 heavy machine gun and will fire AP
>continuously as long as it has ammo.   Had he started firing at the
>sound of the breakin though the wall, yes, it would have been quite
>effective.  At least there would be several JBT's who wouldn't be around
>to repeat their atrocities.  He might still have ended up dead in the
>long run as the power of government always protects it's own to the
>extreme.

I didn't know what  Browning 1919 was. Thanks for the info. In that
case, he might have gotten one of them if he'd been fast enough to get
to it before they burst into the room with their submachine guns. I
think he still would have ended up dead.
I've never once heard of someone shooting a couple of cops, ending up
in a standoff, and then the police saying "Oops! This was our fault,
and we're going on home now! Sorry for the inconvenience!" Every
standoff I've read about ends up with the suspect dead or locked away
for a very long time.
Miradus

Mysterion   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism "Mysterion" <nos...@netrax.net> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Protective Coloration, "SECURITY" jackets, and Fake Credentials Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalism87aca22dad32fee1" Individual Message Show original scott summers wrote in message ...
>Well, I'm not sure how you guys work in the real world, but all the ones on
the
>pseudo-reality shows are not exactly playing by the rules. As I understand
it,
>when a bailee signs a contract with a bondsman, he has given the bondsman,
or
>his agents, permission to enter HIS (the bailee's) dwelling in order to
>retrieve him and make sure he appears in court. But, with cameras rolling,
the
>BEAs usually go to his girlfriend/mother/cousin/frien d/etc. and confront
them
>at their dwelling demanding entrance to look for the bailee. Usually,
seeing a
>half dozen armed men dressed like FBI guys on a raid, they let them in.

Many people are stupid.  Also many don't know their real rights.
I have bullshitted my way into homes looking for fugitives before.
>However, on the occasions when the homeowner tells them to leave, they are
just
>ignored and they force their way in anyway. Every time. They have even on
>occasion handcuffed the homeowner. Now, only an idiot would act in this
way,
>since comitting crimes such as kidnapping, intimidation, breaking and
entering,
>tresspassing,and criminal confinement, especially when you have a film crew
>rding it all, is just plain stupid.

Agreed.  I do BEA work to make money, not to get sued, shoot or arrested.
 >Now,if you are truly a responsible, law
>abiding BEA, I am sure you don't operate this way. You spend most of your
time
>making phone calls and politely asking relatives and friends to turn in the
>bailee. Nor do you kick down doors and launch swat raids. You knock on
doors
>wearing your suit and tie, only enter when invited, and only draw your
weapon
>if absolutely necessary. If so, I withdraw my blanket statement that BEA's
are
>idiots, and confine that characterization to the few I have seen in action.

Well, aside from the suit and tie bit, you are mostly cor.
I spend a lot time sitting in a minivan with a pair of binoculars and peeing
into an empty plastic bottle.
A private home is always the worst place to go after a fugitive, too many
exits to cover and you never know what they've got in there. We've gotten 6
so far and 4 of those have been at the local convenience store. Got another
in a bar and the 6th in the hallway of his apartment building. Patience is a
big time virtue here.

Bill Seward   Dec 5 1999, 12:00 am     Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Bill Seward <1...@nr.infi.net> - 1999/12/05 Subject: Re: Denver JBTs "mistakenly" murder father of 9 Reply to Author Forward Print misc.survivalismf442f593f67488a6" Individual Message Show original Whilst tap dancing on a land mine,
- -T...@podunk.net (Terry Shaw)
wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:53:20 -0500, Bill Seward <1...@nr.infi.net>
>wrote:
>>Just as an FYI, another SWAT team (local to me) raided the alledged
>>home of a "bigtime drug dealer" this week.  Snipers on the roofs,
>>blocked off access to several blocks, blah blah.  And no, they didn't
>>get their man--he was never there.
>We need to start publically identifiying these hooded troops and the
>uniforms the give the orders.  Since these people have no public
>"identity" during these raids, they can currently get away with
>anything.  
>Once these people are publically identified -- they will loose the
>ability to operate unpunished.
I

 doubt that it would do much good--like most other insular groups,
the police take care of their own.
Lets say they get to keep their hoods (digression:  why can cops wear
hoods but the KKK can't?  Just curious...) but they have to
conspiciously display their numbered badge so the citizens can
identify them.  Badge #666 is accused of brutalizing a suspect.  The
police conviently produce rds showing the unnamed officer couldn't
have been the one, since he/she/it wasn't on duty at the time--you
must have misread the badge number.
The only thing that would even slow this down is for some of the
uniformed bad guys to be taken down with the same media hoopla as the
un-uniformed bad guys are.  But I wouldn't hold my breath...

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